Why she can't be V.P.

At this point, we know that Barack Obama is the presumptive nominee for the Democratic party. We know that Hillary Clinton will most likely suspend her campaign this weekend and endorse Senator Obama for President of these United States. I, for one, am glad that she fought as hard as she could even if I disagreed strongly with some of her methods. I am actually very surprised that she lost because I would have put money on her winning the nomination and winning the presidency up until super Tuesday. On not so super Wednesday, it was clear that her campaign had not prepared for the long haul. And by Baton death March it was clear that her campaign was changing course in a bog as opposed to on a dime. But, as much as I hate to admit it, her fight made Obama a stronger candidate.

Now we move on the Vice Presidential selection part of the campaign. Obviously many supporters and surrogates for Senator Clinton would love to see her recieve the V.P. spot. After all, her loss was slimmer than any other Democrat's in history. But with any V.P. candidate you have to compare the negatives with the positives.

Her positives are quite obvious. She would bring in millions of voters. She might make Arkansas blue. Florida would probably be a sure thing. She could bring in a significant portion of the womans' vote. She is a fighter.

Unfortunately, her negatives are just as high. I personally feel (and I hope I don't offend too many people here) that her largest negative is Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton was a great president. I loved him. I loved his presidency. I feel he got a raw deal in his last term and highlighted how much tax payer money some Republicans are willing to waste to achieve personal goals regardless of how it might affect the country. But Bill has been very off as of late. More to the point, ex-presidents are hard to work with in general. Bill Clinton found that out with Carter during his presidency. Hillary found that out with her husband during this campaign. It's hard to reign in someone who has been the leader of the free world. They feel that they know what they're doing, even if what they're doing may not be what you want them to do. So unless promises are made that he won't have a key position, Bill's presence is actually a hindrance to Hillary as V.P.

Her second biggest negative is the campaign she ran. McClatchy reports (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/39 811.html) that the RNC has already put up ads using Clinton's campaign talking points against Obama. This is something Obama supporters right here on MyDD warned about in the negative diaries that were so popular on the rec list earlier this year.

It's really hard to refute words during a debate that you uttered multiple times just a couple of months prior. Many people have stated that she could simply reply that she was in a hard fought campaign to excuse her comments. The problem with this is that you come across as either playing politics during the nomination, or playing politics during the general. Either way your sincerity is questioned. I won't even go into the "Elitist" comments and the Clinton campaign commercial that followed that.

Finally, putting Clinton on the ticket after spitting out the word CHANGE for 17 months might seem a little disingenuous. So it's not like Obama is completely blameless in the position I see Clinton in.

I honestly feel these her negatives outweigh the positives I mentioned. I simply don't see how she can be an asset on the ticket. Please note that I am fine with her if Obama ultimately decides to choose Clinton. But I'd like to see what other people think, and tell me if my reasoning just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.



Display:


Congratulations for being the first (2.00 / 5)

person to pour water on the Unity fire after Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton graciously announced her support and advocacy for Senator Obama.  You should be really really really really proud of yourself.  Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:35:36 AM EST

With all due respect. . . (none / 0)

I sincerely doubt I'm the first. But it's how I feel. I'm perfectly willing to discuss civilly why I'm wrong and someone else is right.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You were the first diary up with this (2.00 / 2)

tonight, AFTER, Hillary Clinton endorsed and offered her support to Barack Obama.  I personally think it's pretty tasteless to post this right now.  Additionally, I think you're wrong about her being VP---there's at LEAST 18 million reasons why bringing her on the ticket would be a heck of a good idea.  Anyway, I don't really want to argue right now--sleep sounds better.


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:46:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You were the first diary up with this (2.00 / 2)

Second. Sleeptime sounds much better. Second night in a row no shootings or heart attacks or emergencies in the ER. That's a first for me in twenty years. Is sanity spreading like an epidemic in the Bronx? I hope so!


Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

May your night stay sane my friend. I'll cross a (none / 0)

couple fingers for ya!


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, (2.00 / 1)

perhaps right now is not the best time to say everything on one's mind.  I know the Hillary supporters have made that calculation.  I suggest you take this diary down.  There is too much ill will to be doing little victory dances at the moment.  I say that as a 48-hour convert to the Obama cause.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:46:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (2.00 / 2)

Honestly, you diary reeks of just nasty rehashing of old wounds at this point. I've heard everything you say expressed days ago, and it serves no purpose whatsoever. In the spirit of unity I think you should just delete it.


Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:40:31 AM EST

I second your vote that (2.00 / 1)

this diary be deleted.  It's just NOT what we need right now (or ever as far as I'm concerned)--especially not tonight.  It's tasteless right now.


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (2.00 / 2)


The essential ingredient of politics is timing.

Pierre Trudeau


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:49:41 AM EST

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

Apparantly neither can John Edwards cause he's caught bad mouthing Barack in the vid too...


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:47 AM EST

I don't know if he wants it. (none / 0)

He's said time and again that he's not interested in the Vice Presidency. But if he were, I think due to the fact that he dropped out so early nothing too damaging could be said against Edwards or by Edwards. I do feel that the length of the campaign also contributed to some of the negativity that occurred. But you never know, LBJ got JFK's VP spot. But iirc that's the last time a close fight ended up that way.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:08:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know if he wants it. (2.00 / 1)

eeshhh. i do think its a double standard working here. Maybe if Hillary said she wasn't intersted then everybody would be suggesting her, like how Edwards has and how everyone is hoping he is VP.

Honestly, I dont who I want as VP. alot of the choices seem like duds. especially Richardson. man, i just dont like him and Im a Hispanic! hahaa. but thats niether here nor there.

Who's your pick?


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:15:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

My Girlfriend loves Webb and hope he gets it. I think he should concede something to Clinton and possibly choose a Clinton insider, like Clark or Evan Bayh, maybe even Rendell (though I've heard rumors that he may have some negative political baggage).
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

Well I dont know alot about Webb, and Im more educated than the normal person. I dont think another realtively 'unknown' (at least to the regular folks, especially the Latino community) is gonna help him that much. Even Evan Bayh is not really known at all. Clark seems too old, and after Obama touted that he didn't need any military cred, Im not sure it would make his case. Rendell is probably the best known and I dont know if I like him much.

I dont have a pick. Sensibly I would say Clinton by default, but thats my 'normal average folk' side talking.


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (2.00 / 1)

I've thought of Claire McCaskill as VP ever since she endorsed him, but I won't tell Obama because he's been ignoring me since he started winning (no coincidence there).

Whoever he picks, that's the person he needs, & I'll support her/him 110%. Unless it Lieberman, then I'm dead.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:38:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

ooh, I totally forgot about McCaskill. Good point!
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:41:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

well after gauging some peeps on the blogosphere, choosing another female candidate will be seen as a slap to the face for many of Hillary supporters. It might do more harm than good...


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

I don't know who would objectively make the best VP, as there are too many imponderables for my small brain. I've felt Obama would pick McCaskill, but can't back up that feeling with facts or concrete arguments why he should.

I've heard the "slap in the face" arguement, as well as the "too much change on one ticket" argument. Luckily, as opposed to voting, making a choice about VP doesn't fall on my head.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:00:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I honestly don't know. . (none / 0)

yeah. this is such a guessing game. and i dont have any good guesses.


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:05:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lieberman? (none / 0)

He might as well ask Dick Cheney back as far as I'm concerned. Ugh!!!

Otherwise, I'm right there with ya'll. I'm too tired from the Primaries to focus on the VP at this point. I'm with the Dems no matter what happens, and I'm glad that no one important cares for my input on the subject!


by RNinNC on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lieberman? (none / 0)

hahaaa. im super tired from the primaries. its like getting clobbered a hundred times over, I cant even imagine how hard it was to be a candidate. I can barely take the beating as a supporter.


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:10:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lieberman? (none / 0)

...now imagine you're John McCain, and on top of it all, you've got to worry what surprise Bush is gonna' do next to torpedo your slim chances.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know if he wants it. (none / 0)

Let's start the Draft Clark movement today!


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (2.00 / 1)

Tasteless and trolling diary.

Unnecessary and extremely divisive.

Get it out of here.


by AlexScott on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:08:06 AM EST

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. (2.00 / 3)

There have been a ton of troll diaries that make it up on the rec list and stay there for days. Nasty diaries that do nothing but make ad hominem attacks against Democrats running for the nomination. Three of them held up Harriet Christian as some shining beacon. Yes, it's been angry here. But if those pieces of crap can have their say, I can write a diary that lays out actual points of discussion not be called trollish. I didn't attack Senator Clinton's character and I don't make some ultimatum that she never be on the ticket. And it's not like I'm the only one talking about this. McClatchy, Politico, NYTimes, etc. all have large articles devoted this exact same topic. I apologize if I offended you with the diary, but I do not believe that anything in it is overtly offensive.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:14:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. (2.00 / 1)

I also called for the deletion of the tasteless and classless recent diaries of Alegre and TexasDarlin.  Your diary is pointlessly divisive. There is no need to say what you're saying.  If we're on myDD, we know the game, we know what's been said. Bringing it up and making a big huff about it only serves to divide us.  No more Clinton/Obama bashing of any kind.  It is totally uncalled for.

Hillary Clinton and (99.9 percent) of her supporters are being very, very classy about this whole thing. Same with Barack Obama and (99.9 percent) of his supporters. Keep it that way.


by AlexScott on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. (none / 0)

We're not going to see eye to eye on this. I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I'm not trying to bash her. The next logical topic of political discussion is which persons will be VP candidates. Senator Clinton is clearly at the top of the Democratic list. I lay my reasons against that here, without, I hope, "making a big huff about it."

According to your reasoning we should only discuss things on MyDD that everyone agrees with. I see it differently. Withing certain parameters we should be able to discuss differences.


by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. (2.00 / 1)

Your diary is no more inflammatory than any number of diaries posted in recent weeks, months, that's not the point.  It's the timing.  This is Unity Week and it's long overdue.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More positive celebration and respect. (none / 0)

"We as black people now have hope that we have never, ever had. I have new goals for my little girl. She can't give me any excuses because she's black."


KWABENA SAM-BREW, an immigrant from Ghana, on Barack Obama's clinching of the Democratic presidential nomination.

Did you read the letter on the front page?

Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton made her own bed (none / 0)

...by deciding to go negative.  We warned her not to, we told her to stop, and she did it anyway.  It is not divisive or mean of the diarist to point this out, it was a divisive and stupid thing for Clinton to have done.

I still would be ok with her as VP, but she better work extra hard to make up for the negative attacks.


by libertyleft on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:33:57 AM EST

Re: Clinton made her own bed (2.00 / 1)

It is divisive.  Because it serves no purpose to bring up now.  Obama won.  She is conceding. We all know what went on in the primary.  It's their choice to decide how to deal with it now.  All bringing things like this up will do is inflame past battles. Completely unnecessary.


by AlexScott on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton made her own bed (2.00 / 1)

We aren't refighting past battles, we are discussing how those past battles impact the current one.  Not doing so is ignoring reality, and not a wise way to run a campaign.


by libertyleft on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:42:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton made her own bed (2.00 / 1)

First of all it's terrible timing.  But the thing about the timing is also this---now that the primary is over, there is no time for it at all.

There's no need for this discussion at all either.  We have no say in the VP side of things.  So let's not pretend that what we say here about it is new information or is going to sway anything one way or another.

All it's going to do is divide us.

So stop.


by AlexScott on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:19:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton made her own bed (none / 0)

Here's a serious question:  Did any of us in the past 3 months really think we were going to somehow change the minds of the other Democratic nominee's supporters?  I didn't.  


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's over (2.00 / 1)

Forget the primary. Let's all sing kumbaya and have a group hug.

Posting this now is not helping the presumptive nominee. Whatever negative thoughts i might have about Clinton will from here on out be kept to myself.

The only thing we need to hear now is. THANK YOU Hillary for your support. Now be constructive or go away.


by hankg on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:49:49 AM EST

Re: It's over (none / 0)

See my responses upthread. And for the record, this is about the VP slot, not the primary. I thanked Hillary for her support personally on her website.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over (2.00 / 1)

There is no primary for VP. Obama will pick whoever by whatever standards he cooses whenever he chooses.

It's not productive to use the VP selection to rehash the primary battle. Obama wants the focus to be on Obama v McCain. Of course the media would like to turn the question of VP into a soap opera and avoid focusing on the election and the issues. Don't help them.


by hankg on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

Quote: "Her positives are quite obvious. She would bring in millions of voters. She might make Arkansas blue. Florida would probably be a sure thing. She could bring in a significant portion of the womans' vote. She is a fighter."

These are all good points, but let me try to explain something.  BO cannot automatically ASSume he will get any or all of the blue states.  I watched carefully here in NJ's presidential primary, and there was a whole lot of nothing going on for him.

Outreach? no... the only contact I had was when John Kerry gave his fundraising list to the BO people, and the anonymous person on the line seemed to think I was anxious to give my credit card number to her.

Without a whole lot of CHANGE from what we've seen in the primary, BO minus HRC would be lucky to do as well as Dukakis.  I liked Dukakis; I voted for him.  "But Barry... you're no Dukakis."


by jginnane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:07:50 AM EST

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

I'd honestly be SHOCKED if NJ went red. Massachusetts, not so much, but NJ yes, it would be surprising. I'll stick with Poblano, as he's been pretty accurate so far, though my gut disagrees with him on Michigan.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

Don't worry about Massachusetts.  The eastern half or 2/3 is solidly liberal and the western half is like upstate NY: moderately Republican but not passionate enough to get out the vote to swing it for McCain.  I have no doubts Obama will win MA by 10+ points.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

Obama winning isn't enough for these people.  Clinton graciously conceding and throwing 100% of her support behind Obama isn't enough for these people.  They won't stop.  And then they talk about Hillary supporters uniting behind Obama?  What a fucking joke.


by musicpvm on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:09:23 AM EST

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (2.00 / 1)

Well now that's not very mature of you, is it?

I am a big time Obama supporter (look to my comment history for proof of this), and then look at what I've written in this very thread.

As I said earlier, 99.9 percent of us who support both Obama as well as Clinton are rational people who want this divisive bullshit to end.

Which is why this diary, as well as others like it, need to be deleted ASAP.


by AlexScott on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

It will fall by the wayside like most diaries. But it's not a hateful diary, even if it's bad timing as Shaun pointed out. So I won't delete it.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

Please don't paint all Obama supporters with a broad brush.  Playing the game of which supporters are more obnoxious is, at this point in time, obnoxious.  

I don't believe the diary is a trolling diary, and it presents its arguments well.  Nevertheless, I don't think it's productive to discuss the negatives of a unity ticket at this blog, when the movement towards unity is still being done tentatively.  Moreover, this choice isn't really up for political bargaining, as Ed Rendell said today.

I'm sure the diarist could post it at DKos and there will be bloggers there more open to address your substantive points.  


by ProfessorReo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Confused (none / 0)

I can remember only two comments from Clinton that could be tricky to retract were she the VP candidate -- the commander and chief comment and the comment that she would have left a church like Trinity.

Alot of hay has been made about both of them and I found them both fairly benign and easy to get around.  She didn't say Obama wasn't ready to be CIC, she just challenged the notion and left it hanging out there.  Easy enough to fix with strong sound bites that assert why he is ready.
The same thing with the church comment -- she's talked to him about it, she gets it now, she believes in his rationale, blah blah blah.

Beyond those two, everything else is normal campaign rhetoric that also-rans spin into positives all the time.

Frankly, I don't buy into this "Clinton's negative campaign" idea -- I found her no more negative than Obama. If never saying anything inflammatory about the top of the ticket is the criteria, McCain is going to have to look in Siberia for a running mate.

Much ado about nothing.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:56:48 AM EST

Re: Confused (none / 0)

You're wrong - when over 60% in opinion polls say she has been negative, she has.  You forgot the elitism charges, just words, change you can zerox, 3am ...  there's actually an awful lot there to throw back at Clinton.


by interestedbystander on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:08:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused (none / 0)

Very true, but how much do you remember from January?  Because that's how far away November is.  


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused (none / 0)

I'm pretty sure the GOP and their 527's won't have forgotten.


by interestedbystander on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused (none / 0)

Fair enough.  Let's just hope the American voter is not interested in 5-month-old scandals by then.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confused (none / 0)

I actually think the "wouldn't have been my church" comment isn't an issue at all. Although at the time it was divisive, I think 1) most people might agree with her and 2) McCain and the RNC do not want to bring up church's in the general. Where Obama was a congregant of TUCC for 20 years and can make the case that it's difficult to cut ties, McCain was not a congregant of Hagee's church, or Parsley's church and actively sought their endorsements AFTER their many controversial remarks.
by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Turning Florida blue is the ONLY consideration. (none / 0)

If McCain wins Florida without Clinton, and Obama wins Florida with Clinton, then he HAS to pick her.

What is Florida, 27 electoral votes?  More?  Other states that people are suggesting other people as VP have only 8 electoral votes, and others have as few as 5.

If 2000 taught us anything, the election runs through Florida and its massive amount of electoral votes.  You could lose up to 4 states combined that would still have less total electoral votes than Florida.

Also, we need to remember that her negatives lie most strongly with the 30% of the public that still supports George W. Bush and will only vote for McCain.  So who cares about her negatives?  

Democrats will vote for her because of her positives.  

Independents will vote for her because of her positives.

Diehard McCain voters will not vote for her because of her negatives.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:12:24 AM EST

Good point n/t (none / 0)


by shalca on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:04:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Turning Florida blue is the ONLY consideration (none / 0)

Leaving Clinton aside, I take issue with the notion that the main criteria for choosing a VP is whether he/she can deliver a particular state.  If that was the case, why didn't Kerry pick someone from Ohio or Florida in 2004?  For one thing, it's really difficult to make any strong claim that a particular VP will "guarantee" victory in a particular state.  

As for the lesson that 2000 election in Florida taught is, it's the exact opposite lesson than the one you suggest.  The lesson is NOT to put all your marbles into winning one or two key swing states.  That doesn't leave a lot of margin for error.  Whoever Obama picks as VP, the reality is that Florida is NOT crucial to the dems winning the election.  In virtually all scenarios, Obama can win the election without winning Florida.  In some scenarios, he can win without Florida and Ohio.


by ProfessorReo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:28:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But I don't think Clinton as VP is putting all (2.00 / 1)

your marbles into Florida.  

MSNBC is usually terrible for anything Clinton related, but Chuck Todd did a great job the other day, standing in front of a map on television screen, with the number of electoral listed within each state, and each state colored red or blue.  He then went on to detail the states that Hillary puts into play, and the states that Tom Vilsack, Evan Bayh, and other potential running mates put into play.

Here's a similar map:  

http://www.270towin.com/

Clinton almost guarantees Arkansas, and she's the only dem that could do so.  But Arkansas has only 6 votes, so its not the biggest deal.  However, Clinton is also the only dem (at least mentioned by Chuck Todd), that could possibly help Obama take Florida.  I was right.  Florida has 27 votes.

Indiana has only 11.  Iowa has only 7.  

So, if Obama picks Vilsack, he may pick up a measly 7 votes from Iowa.  But if Obama picks Clinton, he may get almost as many (6) from Arkansas, in addition to another TWENTY SEVEN from Florida.

Of course its no guaranty Clinton would carry Florida for Obama, but it would appear to be worth the gamble.

Anyway, back to my point.  Hillary wouldn't be on the ticket just for Florida.  She would be on the ticket for a number of other states, including those she won in this primary season.  She brings name recognition, experience to balance out the change, women voters, blue collar voters, jewish voters, latino voters.  There are voters like that in every state.  In fact, I think they even have some of us Jews in Oklahoma.  Florida is just an added bonus with a potential that is too good to leave untapped.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:35:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But I don't think Clinton as VP is putting all (none / 0)

It's hard to take anything you say seriously with that signature of yours.  

I repeat, your premise is wrong: voters don't vote for the vice president.  And with vice president, you don't "gamble" on the choice.  A vice president often doesn't add much, but can do a lot of harm.  So, even if there are potential gains in putting Hillary on the ticket, there are also a lot of risks.  

Not to say that rules her out, but my point is, you can't choose a VP based solely on the positive factors.  The negative factors must be weighed.  Ideally, there really ought to be no significant negative factors.  Dan Quayle was one of the worst VP choices, because the guy kept bringing bad attention to himself.  But, the best VP choices are ones that don't draw attention to themselves and keep the spotlight on the top of the ticket.  Al Gore, for example.  No one ever says it was because of a particular VP that a nominee won the race.  

Moreover, even if having Hillary on the ticket may help with unifying the democratic party base, it does not help with drawing independent voters.  

Ultimately, the VP decision should not be thought of as a significant decision that will make or break the ticket.  If that were to be the case, then that means the nominee is so weak that he/she can't win the election on his or her own.  Now, I'm sure that's what you probably think, but, I and many others beg to differ.  Obama is the strongest democratic presidential nominee since Bill Clinton's run in 1992.  


by ProfessorReo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My sig is merely a direct quote from Markos (none / 0)

Moulitsas, and was intended to show just how pathetic the Daily Kos website's founder really is, so people can take his lunatic anti-Hillary ravings with a grain of salt.  It was topical until Obama clinched the nomination.  Now, I'll have to search for a new one.  So, I hope you aren't using the dumbass words of Markos Moulitsas against me.  

As to the remainder of your post, I don't necessarily disagree with any of it, other than the claim that Hillary doesn't help with independent voters.  I think she helps as much or more than some obscure, one state guy like Vilsack or Bayh.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not with her 50% plus negatives (none / 0)

Democratic loyalists are able to look beyond Hil's negatives, which is why she wasn't hurt by her high negatives in the democratic primaries.  But, independents and moderate republicans are voters for whom Hillary's negatives could outweigh her clear positives.  


by ProfessorReo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let her Alone (2.00 / 1)

Can Obama supporters please give her some space now that she's agreed to do what she should have the other night?

Leave it alone.

Obama will choose his VEEP based on the info at hand.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:18:19 AM EST

I do not believe Hillary wants to be his VP! (2.00 / 1)

You seem to be more interested in media spin than truth. The primary campaign is finished be truthful. I do not have to take your MSNBC and other MSM bullshit.

<boldquote>
Clinton's remarks came in response to a question from Democratic Rep. Nydia Velazquez, who said she believed the best way for Obama to win key voting blocs, including Hispanics, would be for him to choose Clinton as his running mate.

"I am open to it," Clinton replied, if it would help the party's prospects in November.
</boldquote>

The media and liars like you want make it appear
as though she was throwing herself at his feet.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:24:37 AM EST

Re: I do not believe Hillary wants to be his VP! (none / 0)

You seem to be more interested in media spin than truth. The primary campaign is finished be truthful. I do not have to take your MSNBC and other MSM bullshit.


Clinton's remarks came in response to a question from Democratic Rep. Nydia Velazquez, who said she believed the best way for Obama to win key voting blocs, including Hispanics, would be for him to choose Clinton as his running mate.

"I am open to it," Clinton replied, if it would help the party's prospects in November.

The media and liars like you want make it appear
as though she was throwing herself at his feet.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:25:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do not believe Hillary wants to be his VP! (none / 0)

yes. it does seem like the MSM is hamming it up ^^^^^. it most certainly makes her look quite desperate...

furthermore, im not sure either if she wants to serve as VP.


by alyssa chaos on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:14:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why she can't be V.P. (none / 0)

I think one of your reasons is legit, the other two basically overblown.

1. Bill is a problem, maybe a dealbreaker.  There's no two ways about this.  Were they to put Hillary on the ticket, there would have to be some serious ground rules about what Bill could do both during the campaign and once Obama is in office.  Personally, I think they should put him on an island, sort of like Napoleon.

2. I think Hillary's attacks on Obama are overblown.  Everybody knows this was within the context of a primary campaign.  It wouldn't be the first time that a VP and a nominee have duked it out hard and then ended up on the same ticket.  Most importantly, the GOP will use these kinds of ads primarily to target Hillary supporters and try to get them to defect.  Having Hillary on the ticket is the best defense against that.

3. I also think the concerns about the change message are too simplistic.  This is a message that was highly effective  but that in the end ran into limits in terms of its traction in the electorate.  Something Obama has to do anyway is retool his message slightly to become more inclusive and accommodate a bigger tent.  He's not going to get away from "change" as the core message of his campaign, but he's going to soften this message a lot anyway.

From what I understand from friends in the DNC, the single biggest obstacle to Hillary on the ticket is that Michelle Obama hates her.  That, plus the questions about Bill, might be enough to make it off the table.  But I think a lot of the other concerns are overblown and are over exaggerated by many Obama supporters who just can't deal with the idea in their guts because they've spent the last six months vilifying her.  


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:14:50 AM EST

Oh shut up already (2.00 / 1)


by linc on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 10:19:01 AM EST

there is another diary asking for sigs (none / 0)

on a petetion to have her on the ticket.  Since there is on of those on line, I see nothing wrong with this diary declaring why this is a bad idea.  Free discussion of ideas/viewpoints and all that.


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 10:47:28 AM EST

another reason she can't be V.P.... (none / 0)

that she was accused by the front of the ticket's campaign for calling for his assignation.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:27:17 AM EST


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